Living our older age
Adapted from an Interview with Leila Cohn, July 2015
Introduction by Stanley Keleman
As adults we are many-bodied and each of our bodied shapes has its time, its special feelings, needs, images, actions and world view. As life moves past the full grown alpha adult, many people have difficulty envisioning a desirable future and they are vulnerable to loss, sorrow and despair. By learning to voluntarily influence our shapes and form our behavior, we can make maturity and older age a time of empowerment and optimism, a richly layered tapestry of past, present and future.
From a Formative perspective, llving our older age does not mean we are simply waiting to become old and die. It means we are living to form ourselves through all the stages of living. It means valuing our accumulated, lived history — bodily, emotionally and creatively — and enlisting all its richness to participate in the pioneering effort to re-body, re-define and give new meaning to the late phases of our embodiment.
— S. Keleman, 2015
Leila: Here we are again, doing our interviews with Stanley Keleman, and this time we are going to talk about the experience of being an older adult. Hello, Stanley, it is really a pleasure to be here with you.
Stanley: It´s funny that I feel like a young adult (laughs), but I understand that your question is what is it like to acquire years.
L: Yes, and I want to read, quoting you, part of a poem, so that we can start from there.
S: OK.
L: I live each day as if it is a first day
like mythical images of winged serpents soaring in space
I have learned to surf my own pulsating waves,
the undulating living tissue migrations
elastic tides of ever changing shapes,
humming, whistling, speaking and singing
of anticipated future forming
S: I think I wrote this for my 80th birthday. It is a reference to a ground floor, primary pulsatory reality, how we are swimming in the surf of our own present and how to have an embodied experience of our own existence. If you think about embodying your existence and go the next step, you are dealing with how life perpetuates and extends itself over time. You cannot understand being older and acquiring years unless you understand how you are alive in the present.
Waking up in the morning you may feel full of ambition and excitement with an optimism that the day is going to greet you and offer challenges of things that you want to do, and then, you recognize as an older person that this state, this quality of aliveness, needs to be supported to be extended into the day. It needs to be supported by how you act in the world. For the older person, for myself, there is a dilemma between the pulse of your own excitement and how you give it support. How you give your excitement duration is how your existence extends itself in time.
Let me elaborate on this a little. What I am actually trying to say is that when an older adult understands that their body structure has changed, and comes to understand and accept this…well, once you grasp the idea that there is an aging process, it does not mean that something overtakes you and you can do very little about it. No, the reality of aging, in fact, demands that you understand you are entering a time of life where the rules are not well established.
Contemporary society does not do a very good job of telling a person how to be older. There are many, many people who reach this life stage and are used up, or have used themselves up in doing ritual activities or by trying to sustain a particular way of life not suited to their changing body. And then they see themselves as being helpless or a victim. But the truth of the matter is that we have inside us an organ that helps us respond to and shape the behaviors of our changing body. And that is the cortex! And by using the cortex to learn about ourselves and to form ourselves we are extending the present by living our age.
Again, it’s how you act to form age appropriate behaviors rather than expecting always to be the same. How you act to influence yourself is the big difference in how a Formative adult acquires his or her maturity and how you can live in later life. To act Formatively is a special way of being in the world. It means learning to be a different adult, not a lesser adult but a different adult than in an earlier age.
Recognizing differences in how your body is functioning requires an attitude of curiosity. How much time does something take? If my reflexes are slower, how do I adjust to that? If I slow down do I recognize a different rhythm, a different timing? With these questions I am now educating myself. And it is this re-education that really defines whether you will be a victim to aging, trying to ward it off, or you will accept the challenge to form a different way of being that is very personal and is different than the younger vitality you remember.
L: This is wonderful. So, there are changes related to aging that are genetically programmed and there are changes a person can form for themselves. At this time in our history people are living longer, which hasn’t happened before, so the opportunity to form yourself at this stage of life is unique.
S: I don’t know whether living longer is genetically programmed. I think, as I have understood the process of genetic organization, that after a certain amount of cell replications there are changes in the replication process and in the cells. And this has a relationship with how you have lived. If you have used yourself hard or anxiety has eaten you up by the production of too much cortisol, adrenaline or other hormones, aging accelerates. The ability to deal with stressful situations in a Formative way brings you closer to limiting or postponing these changes of replication.
So, I would say it is urgent, if you are willing to voluntarily help yourself, to learn new behaviors and new ways to deal with life’s challenges. From intermittent crises to ordinary daily activities, such as learning new walking patterns or learning what your digesting patterns are or how you get in and out of a chair, or how you hold your attention in a conversation. The challenge is literally how you are re-learning how to be.
L: So it is an interactive process, you and your aging process, re-bodying, on a daily basis.
S: Yes. You know, years and years ago one of my teachers told me the best way to have a long, good life is to have a sub-acute illness and to learn how to live with it. What he was saying, basically, is to learn something about your limitations and the demands you make on yourself. If you are able to modify your behavior rather than always demanding of yourself to perform more than your body is able, if you do that, you won’t misuse yourself, and you extend your life and you extend your present and you extend a particular kind of vitality.
L: And then you can create your own narrative, about what it is to be an older person.
S: Yes, it is all a learning process, it is not a loss, I do not call it a loss when the body is changing its structure. You, in fact, need less muscle mass if your metabolic activity slows down. The question is how much excitement can I take and when is the time to curtail it? A change in energy or attention doesn’t mean that something is lost; it means that you have a challenge to use yourself differently and that is a big difference!
L: This is very, very good. So going from that, going to how you use yourself: You have said that micro-movements affect the small muscles around the joints and that practicing with micro-movements can affect balance and the ability to move in the world, which is different now with age. Could you say something more about this?
S: We are dealing partly with a structural problem. I shouldn’t even call it a problem; we are dealing with structural change. One of the things about acquiring years is that, for whatever reason, there is a loss of muscle structure. Basically it is about 1.5% of loss every year starting at around 45. So after 25 years starting at 45 and you are 70, there is a significant structural change. For example, in walking it affects balance, and how you respond to uneven pavement because the internal muscular system of how you keep balance has changed. Most people do not take into account the body’s restructuring, and do not know how to support their activity in a way that allows them to learn to move differently within the parameters of their changed structure. Learning to form a new way of moving, which is to use the muscle structure that is now present, gives you a different balancing mechanism, gives you different neural connections, gives you a different sense of how you move in the world and what kind of experiences you have.
So here again, the important thing is to know your structural changes and how you can support these changes by learning to move in new ways or by modifying old action patterns. So rather than trying to imitate what was, or be limited by a sense of loss, what is called for is to make new behaviors, new action patterns and new memories.
L: So, how does making a new memory work?
Memories are neural connections that have stability and duration. Making new memories and modifying old memories is how a child learns to develop itself when change is the basic state. Watch a child learning to walk or talk. They learn a behavior in segments, bit by bit using repetition, modification and practice. Neural connections and action patterns are stabilized and then modified and stabilized again and modified. We all develop this learning style, from infant to child, from child to adolescent, adolescent to adult. In these early years we are always learning and practicing to use ourselves differently. In the full-grown adult stage of life, change seems to slow and we have a sense of stability, and even though there are changes, we are usually able to hold the parameters within a recognizable stable pattern.
But as a person acquires years and muscle structures change and efficiency changes, there is again the need to learn to use oneself differently. This is another time of life that calls for practice, modification and repetition. I like to call this practice somatic re-education. And once you understand that what is called for is a new period of learning, then you are in a position to form your present and extend your present into a future. Meeting the challenge of using yourself differently gives you values about how you relate to yourself, how you relate to your changed structure and how you are in the world in an unique personal way.
L: You have mentioned extended time and memory and learning how to deal with the changes and how to use yourself in a different way. Could you elaborate more about the changes in memory and the changes in the sense of time as people grow older?
S: So, what is the relationship between using your muscles and having a different time frame for accessing memory? If remembering things has a different recall time, you have a choice. Either you can react to it as ‘I am losing my memory’ or ‘How I recall things takes more time, and how do I relate to that?’ Most people do not realize there is calendar time and there is body time. If you are talking about time in relationship to an institutionalized framework, so a society can run on time for doing work and measuring things, then using society’s time is functional — but it may not be your time.
Well then, how do you understand your time if you are not always measuring yourself according to institutional time? I would say body time is your time. It is in the rhythms of sleep and awakeness, the rhythms of heartbeat and breath and how different parts of the body come online to do different things. And then there is the time of how you intentionally use yourself, the time it takes to learn a task, the time it takes to form a memory that’s recallable and reusable. Memory and recall are not only mental events; they are also neural and muscular events. You can say, ‘I want to do X.’ Well, ‘I want to do X’ may now have a different time according to the actions and speed you are able to muster and how you incorporate this timing into your daily life. How the body recruits itself for action is a series of metabolic events that tell you about your body time. And the older body speaks loudly about its time (smiles).
Back to your question about muscle and joint, there is the speed of muscle response, which is one form of time, and then there is sort of joint time, joint time is not only influenced by muscles but also influenced by tendons, and ligaments. Each one of them has a contracting and extending pattern and it is all coordinated. And at the ligament level you have to make sure your joint movement doesn’t transcend its ability for a range of movement or you hurt yourself. Then there is another time frame when the amount of muscle responsiveness is not adequate to the demand, when it needs some input from tendon time and from ligament time. When you have a slower time about how a joint moves through its range of action, then you have a different speed gradient, which is a different perception of time, which is a different recognition of how you are present in the world as a receiving and responding adult.
L: So this is how when you work with voluntary muscular effort, with small degrees of pressure, with the small muscles, you can affect the experience of time?
S: Well, what I am saying is that there is a macro-behavior with muscle response time and neural response time. But there is also micro-behavior in the small muscles around the joint to limit movement so its integrity is not compromised and stability is enhanced. There is also cardiac, vascular and gut time. There are different parameters of responsiveness to stimuli, to activity, which gives you a whole range of temporal identity, a whole range of satisfaction, a whole range of contact and this has to be supported by voluntary effort as you acquire years because the structure needs to be organized differently so that your time frame is related to the metabolic state of your organism.
L: You have said time is metabolism. Could you say more about this?
S: I just said it, but I will say it in a different way. Most of us think of time as calendar and clock time, we say today or next week, a second, a minute, etc. Or we say a particle or an element breaks down and its radiations extend over a period of time, and we make a clock from it by counting the pulsations of a particle over time. But there is also human pulsatory time. Heartbeat time, digestive time and response to stimuli time, there is also the time of muscle recruiting its action pattern.
The time in which you assemble an action is a metabolic time. How the organism assembles its behavior has its own metabolism and this is body time. How you organize yourself and how you wait for yourself, this is also your body time. Neural time, especially as you are gaining years, can be quicker then muscle time. But that doesn’t mean that it is out of sync, it means that you have to recognize that you may think of something and it takes time for you to assemble the action.
Once you recognize that this is a new way of being in the world, it is not a question of loss. It is a question of the organism recognizing that a changed metabolism is a different response time. The somatic exercises use macro-movements and micro-movements for learning how your body generates its experience. When a person starts learning to live their time they are learning experientially how action is metabolism.
L: As metabolism changes with age, then the experience of time changes?
S: Yes, perhaps your recognition of time. You realize that you have your time, and you may not be in sync with other people’s time. So how would you then make a relationship to that difference within yourself and with another person?
Okay let’s return to the exercise protocol that teaches how you are using yourself. You could ask how is it that you attend to a task? For example, handwriting seems to be different as you get older and you recognize that you are not attending to how the muscle is acting but trying to imitate a habitual behavior, not realizing how you are trying to do something in a way that is out of sync with how you are able to respond. So slowing a behavior to notice the patterns of micro-movements helps you understand how you organize yourself. Noticing how you are organizing an action, how you change position or speed, noticing that these anatomical events take place in very small movements and those small movements add up to a big pattern. Or notice how you focus your attention, what are the steps of organizing it and when does one pattern change to another? Rather than making a big statement like ‘I can´t pay attention,’ the practice is how do you pay attention and how do you alter your attentive behavior. So this is what I mean by using micro-movements.
L: I would like to ask you something very practical and specific that concerns driving. Some doctors are saying a person should stop driving after 70 because they lose reflex time. What would you have to say about this?
S: Older people are driving differently because they recognize that their sight doesn’t send a signal fast enough to be responsive or they do get a signal of seeing but it takes time for them to react. So then speed can become a danger for them. They have not learned how to manage their changed reflex time and how to adapt to different driving speeds. Certainly there are dangers related to delayed response. As a matter of fact I know there are schools that teach older people how to learn to accept speed. They train them to recognize how they can drive safer by understanding how their response time can be managed.
L: This is interesting. How would you link this to what you have recently written about the re-bodying potential and intentional re-bodying?
S: Every organism has the ability to re-body itself. Think about a wound — you cut yourself, you get a bruise -– your body is capable of healing by creating a repair process that is a function of re-bodying. It is an automatic process and we all rely on the body knowing how to heal itself, mostly this is involuntary re-bodying. Intentional re-bodying, and by that I mean, voluntary effort of attending — how do I walk down the stairs in such a way that I attend to the shifting weight – how am I transferring weight from one foot to another climbing down and up the stairs? Do I recognize the shift in weight in me, or do I hold myself stiff trying not to lose my balance?
Stiffening engages other muscles and parts of the body and actually inhibits response time and increases instability.
Learning to intentionally pay attention to your actions means noticing if your shoulders are up, arms are ready to brace or body weight leans backward; it also means experiencing how the hip drops, how weight goes through the knees into ankle and spreads across the foot and sends a signal to the other side to behave in a particular way. By attending in this way a person is intentionally learning about their gait. And from there choices can be made to organize a different gait, a different way of moving that has a different metabolism and a different way of experiencing yourself.
Learning about your response patterns and intentionally organizing a slower movement enlists the cortex and gives you another choice for using your cortical processes to learn how you wait for your body’s signals to organize a behavior and how you are supporting that, or even how you ignore it.
L: So, this would be intentional or voluntary re-bodying.
S: Yes, intentional or voluntary re-bodying is built upon involuntary reflex acts or habitual muscle acts that are differentiated and supported by voluntary effort.
L: Would you say that some people could experience conflict, inner conflict, wanting to keep the old ways of moving, of using themselves in the world, and not knowing how to negotiate the new rhythms and metabolism imposing itself?
S: Well, most people think about it as a loss, as something wrong. ‘I am slowing down’ and they can easily slip into resignation, defining themselves as unable to engage their former behavior rather than view themselves as beginners learning how much support they need, and how they can use voluntary muscular effort to re-educate themselves about the changes in their joint movement or their muscle strength, to give themselves an empowering state about how to use themselves differently to form their age.
An interesting thing is that society has programs for how you learn a language, how you learn to write, how you learn to use your brain to think mathematically or symbolically and how you train your eyes and how you train the larynx to make sounds so that the muscle waves have a particular sequence. We all learn society’s rituals for how to pay attention. We have all learned the rules and rituals of how to function as a societal adult, and this education starts in childhood. We are trained in societal behaviors and we are judged by how we take on certain patterns of behaving and relating.
But nowhere is the same sort of attention given to educating people who reach older age and who now need to learn how to adapt to the changes in their body structure that have already taken place. There are no programs for teaching how to re-organize their basic daily behavior in this stage of life. Generally accepted notions as you get older are to keep fit through gym exercises or practice brain tasks. But this is really different than using voluntary effort to learn about your action and response patterns. The somatic practice of voluntary effort is about how you are using yourself, how you are training yourself, educating yourself to have a different body in daily life.
L: We talked about all the expectations and how society has defined how you use yourself at different ages. but there is not this kind of narrative for re-education. The whole narrative is about loss and decline.
S: Let’s make a generalization, in the past 10 or 15 decades the demographics of so many people living past a certain age has grown really gigantic, and it has for lots of reasons, but there is no program for how to live well! The increasing demographic of an aging population is a fact that has emerged and it presents the question: How do you form your aging rather than how does aging form you? How do you influence a changing body structure, rather than try to use old habits that can result in injury or despair. We have an opportunity to engage an educational dynamic that is now emerging big time, especially within the last 25 to 50 years.
L: And this is how the societal structures could be formed because they are not formed yet!
S: That´s right. And you can even go further to say that there are no roles or very few role models for a person who is acquiring years. So for example, when I got to be 75 I said I have arrived, because I had arrived at another age shape. I recognized something had changed and I began to think about how I was functioning at work, how I was using myself, what contact means, how much contact, what is the arc of excitement I can take, how much I gesture, what kind of expectations I had for my responses. I understood I had arrived at a place where my body was recognizably different then it was 10 years earlier and how was I going to shape this? I gave myself a decade, it was arbitrary thinking, I just said 10 years, I am now 70 and heading for 80, how do I want to live through these years as I encounter a different pattern of thinking, remembering, engaging and working? What are the changes in my experiencing, what are the changes in my values and how do things satisfy me? I wondered what is meant about retiring and how do you use yourself to continue to make contributions if you want to? Now I realize this is the challenge of acquiring years when there is really no precedent: How do you live your later years?
L: I was going to ask you about this because the only societal program about being older is the retiring program and that can actually make people stop using themselves as societal contributors.
S: Well, you know, there are lots of classes for seniors, classes to learn dancing or other physical activities, higher education classes adapted for older people or how to train your brain to stay young. But there are no established roles for forming your aging. There is no societal or personal role about what happens in acquiring years. What really interests me is the relationship between an emphasis on social interaction and what I call forming an interior world.
The full-grown adult phase of life is focused on mastering the world, but after that has been accomplished, the emphasis in the later stages of maturity is more toward developing inwardness. How you form an interior life is also a process of re-bodying. Intentional re-bodying in this phase of life means creating experiences that permit you to form a different, more complex, interior organization. It is a shifting and differentiating of anatomical structures and organization, similar to the multi-dimensional world of quantum dynamics, which allows you different experiences and different values.
L: How can the practice with the micro-movements and the changing relationship of muscles and cortex contribute to forming an anatomical interiority?
S: If you took voluntary effort as vivifying the relationship between cortical function and muscular function, then you realize you are invoking a different metabolic interchange. So slowing an action into a sequence of small movements, take any action – reaching out, shaking a hand, picking up the phone – any of these can be done in gradients of shape, muscle intensity and response time. Making a change in an habitual pattern means recognizing what you are doing, and then differentiating this action by slowing the big action pattern into a series of small steps. Then you begin to explore a different layering of experience. You can explore something about your habitual time frame and a slower time frame. How do you slow an action down into a sequence of smaller actions and what does this tell you?
Using voluntary effort becomes an activity of learning. Organizing small movements, really means taking your time to experience how you can use yourself differently in such a way that there is time for you to record the differences and to let the action impress itself on the neural pathways to form new connections or modify or invigorate already established pathways.
So, micro-movements are really slow discrete movements in the service of learning to make more complex internal connections between cortical activity and muscular activity. That’s what I mean by using micro-movements to allow an action to have a rate of responsiveness that permits you to experience the internal connections of an alternative way of using yourself. So you have a choice: Should I try to be faster or should I try to have more contact with myself?
L: And that would affect the efficiency in how you use yourself.
S: And it also affects the appreciation of yourself (smiling).
L: So, we know that many people have very little contact with themselves in the sense of muscle-cortical connections we are talking about. I was wondering if using the micro-movements changes the kinesthetic and tactile experiences and how would that help people develop more self-contact?
S: I think the most important thing is slowing down a pattern of action so that you can experience how you are trying to enact a behavior in your response time, not on something you are trying to imitate or simply doing by habit. When you start to slow down a movement pattern you are already touching yourself, contacting yourself so to speak.
When you engage voluntary effort you are asserting muscular pressure. How you experience pressure is a tactile experience, it can be warm or cool, smooth or prickly or perhaps you pressure yourself in a way that makes you anxious and then you get deflected into a thought pattern rather than the action. Practicing differentiating a pattern of action to get an experience of yourself tactilely or through any other of the senses is a way of experiencing your life.
L: If you use bodily experience as your reference for how to be in the world, it will probably grant you some independence from the ways other people think you should be using yourself.
S: To the degree you learn to influence a pattern of action, you will be able to understand experientially the consequences of your behavior. For example, being overly cautious because you are frightened of falling may engage a response of alert stiffening. To the degree you learn to edit or alter the pattern of stiffening by differentiating it in slow steps, this voluntary effort will modify the excess muscle organization that results in stiffening and to that degree you empower yourself. And to the degree that you can empower yourself, in your range of activities, you are maintaining your independence.
The empowerment that comes from self-management is related to how much you expect from yourself or what others are demanding, for instance how quickly you are expected to move across the room, or how much time you need in the bathroom or what kind of help you want in and out of the tub, if at all. Knowing and respecting your own experience and influencing your muscle patterns, even in small amounts, gives you a sense of managing your own life, specifically managing your body, which is your most private and personal possession! Voluntary effort teaches experiential self-knowledge and self-regulation, and this is what gives you a sense of independence.
L: Which is empowering.
S: Self-knowledge and self-influence is the basis of empowerment.
L: And this is very different from society saying that when people get older they go back to childhood.
S: Well, to feel secure, people do go back to the most practiced behavior they know. The oldest behaviors, the ones that have been repeated over and over again, are the most deeply embedded and these behaviors are repeated because a person has not formed or does not know how to form something different. This is why the old movement or thought patterns become the dominant force. So the way I put it, the dilemma for a person who is gaining years is if you don’t form your memories, you are going to live out the old ones.
L: This is very important!
S: So, when you use micro-movements to alter a behavior pattern, the intent is not to get rid of it, but to alter it and to use yourself differently, so you make new memories and new possibilities. New memories give you a sense of optimism, give you a sense of independence, give you a sense of some management over your own movement and your pain, or your discomfort or your loneliness. And that empowers you and gives you a sense of future.
L: Let’s talk about the forming of new ways of using yourself and forming new memories as being an epigenetic evolution, and how this is transmissible.
S: Epigenetic evolution has a number of different aspects. The important aspect is if I learn to use a tool in a new way I am creating a memory structure and to the degree that the new behavior has not been programmed, it is standing outside of the inherited genetic behavior.
The act of learning something not programmed becomes a memory structure. And this memory structure influences how I teach my children or other adults, so they are also behaving in a way that has not been programmed. Society is built on these creations.
Albert Einstein in his development of the theory of relativity and E=MC2 recognized something that had not been recognized before about the relationship of energy, mass, velocity and experience. His ideas are a classic example of epigenetic evolution that has changed our contemporary world. We perceive our world differently and interact in it differently than pre-Einstein.
But now we are talking about recognizing something about human bodily experience, something about excitement and structure, intensity and time as elements of how an older person learns to influence how they are living and how they can make new memories from which to act. This process of voluntary self-management applied to older age and living longer has not been genetically programmed. It is a learned skill that alters the body’s structure and experience and which can then be transmitted to others, and this is epigenetic evolution.
L: And what do you say to the younger generation about the aging generation?
S: I can say this: When people accompany other people in forming their aging and even as they are leaving life, this experience is transmitting role models. It is also a way to personalize aging and dying rather than impersonalizing a natural process because we do not know how to behave.
Contact with one’s own biological forces and then personalizing that force by voluntary effort changes the way the aging or dying person relates to their own experience, but also, importantly it teaches other people something about what kind of aging and dying they could have.
Voluntary self-influence is an epigenetic evolution, first in terms of tools and society, which changes how you use yourself and then, how you use yourself changes your body shape. There is no doubt we are all deeply influenced by societal behaviors but now we are learning about voluntary self-influence as a tool to form a personalized way of expressing the great gift of embodied life in all the stages of adult living.
L: And this is a very important modeling for younger adults, how to form life at their age and how to form roles for the future. So, I would like you to send two messages. The first for older people about forming their stage of life.
S: I just say, learn about your motor patterns, learn to edit the ones you know very well, learn to differentiate them to use them differently. Make new memories and then you make new associations. And in making new associations you are making new thought patterns, new experiential patterns and you have things to transmit to other people. I would say this is really important in every stage of your life: Take the time and make the effort to form yourself.
L: Now what would you say to younger adults who want to form themselves in a certain way to become a mature adult?
S: You could boil down an embodied life as a series of involuntary and voluntary metamorphosis. We all are living through different changes of body shape over time, starting really early. To the degree that people take on what they want to call self-improvement, whether they want to talk about it morally, behaviorally, or how they want to acquire thinking patterns, feeling patterns, or taking on trying to be rational, or to be more fully expressive, they are making new memories and learning to use themselves. If people recognize inherited, programmed metamorphosis in the body changing its shape from a young adult to a middle-aged adult, and to an older adult, I say also recognize there is voluntary metamorphosis, which I call morphogenesis, where we create voluntary aspects of the inherited behavior that gives us additional memories and additional personal information about creating a social and personal life of meaning and satisfaction. I have tried to transmit the excitement and challenge of self-forming and the role of voluntary cortical effort in making a personal life through every stage of your life. To form yourself with voluntary effort is to participate in the epigenetic dynamic of personal evolution.
L: This is beautiful. And we now have come full circle, because in the first interview we talk about personal evolution.
S: Well thank you very much!
L: Thank you! To be continued….